JESUS SMAAAAAASH!!!
A deceivingly civil debate with a surprise ending. This killed me.
Funny how many times I’ve been threatened with violence for, say, wearing a Bad Religion shirt. Once, several years ago, a group of gung-ho Christian cowboys even threatened to beat up my girlfriend because I was wearing a sweater with Bad Religion’s logo on it. You know, like Jesus would have done.
I’m very passionate about my views. I know a lot of other passionate atheists as well, but I have never heard a non-believer resort to “Oh, you believe in god? Well how ’bout I punch you in the head til you don’t?!”
I’m not saying that all Christians are meatheads, but doesn’t it seem like all meatheads are Christians? Hmmm…
February 25th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Wow, ten minutes of rationalism with a lot of “I don’t know, maybe…” response from the guy, and then that last ten seconds.
It’s like a flip was switched and the redneck kicked in, his tone of voice even changes. That’s great.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:54 am
you mention that you’ve never heard a non-believer resort to beating a Christian into not believing…i’ve never heard of this happening either, but I have indeed seen and heard non-believers verbally attack believers.
I HATE the Christian shit being shoved down my throat, but I also hate the atheist views spat at me as well. I’m not saying that the atheist views are spat at me nearly as often as the Christian bullshit is, but it does happen. When it boils down to it, people really should keep their views to them selves and not worry about what other people think or do.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:39 am
he did hold on for a long time
February 25th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
yeah, i still can’t figure out why he did either. He ended up sounding really stupid.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
The caller had it all wrong in the first place. Doesn’t everyone compare god to bigfoot?
February 25th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
i thought Bigfoot was god
February 25th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
No dude, Lemmy’s god.
February 25th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Howard, it’s not as simple as “keeping your views to yourself” when the “big three” religions all claim to be A: the correct way to live your life on Earth and B: the correct way to get into the afterlife. Their followers are basically hardwired from inception, then, to try to convince other people that they should believe this shit too.
Just ignore them, right? Fine and dandy, until you realize just how much power these relatively small fundamentalist populations have, and you end up with things like our theocracy of a government, with a president that speaks of “evil” in fire-and-brimstone terminology, or institutions like Focus on the Family, which perpetuates — among other myths — that homosexuality is an “abomination” but can be “cured.”
Or how about Alcoholics Anonymous, that teaches people with drinking problems that they’re completely worthless, powerless pieces of shit that can’t make a good decision in their own lives without the help of a “higher power” (state-sponsored program, by the way) or the Discovery Institute, whose sole purpose it is to lobby to get this shit into middle and high school science curricula, as if there is ANY science behind it.
And then children are raised believing this shit before they’ve even developed the ability to think critically and the whole horrible thing continues for another generation. So forgive me, then, when I look in from the outside and think “These people are delusional, batshit insane and fucking RUNNING THE SHOW on false pretenses. Maybe I should say something.”
Or how ’bout I just come down there and punch your fat head in for Darwin?
February 25th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I’ve always wondered the position you have to take if say you’re given court ordered AA because you ran over the mayors prize cow while on a moonshine binge. They have all the higher power god grant me the serenity to not run over cows stuff, but what if you’re atheist.
What about “telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god.” Do you just say “no” or do you say, “Uh, I’ll tell the truth, but not for god” or just keep it simple and just say “yeah.”
“I was drunk, I hit the mayors cow…big deal.”
February 25th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Hahahaha the mayor’s cow
February 25th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Wow. That final reaction isn’t even moderately justified. The atheist guy actually seemed like he was trying to be as respectful as possible about the whole ordeal.
Wild. I really wish the Christian guy had brought up the “watchmaker theory.” That’s my personal favorite because the story automatically completely disproves itself on accident.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
A higher power in AA doesn’t necessarily mean god, and even by being a state-sponsored program it really does help a lot of people. So step off Bill!! ya fuck
February 25th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
jesse… we know that AA got you through some really tough times, but you dont have to yell baby. play it cool.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
I calmed down at the end
February 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
No, I think it’s great that there’s a state-sponsored program to help people quit drinking. I think it’s bullshit that they assume the position that you can’t just STOP FUCKING DRINKING without god™ to help you out, and this is a court-ordained treatment. Seems to me that overcoming a powerful addiction would be infinitely more rewarding if I knew I had done it of my own volition, without submitting to a magical sky wizard, but I guess that’s just me. AA also has a higher dropout rate than American high schools. Sure it may help some people, but do they really have to indoctrinate them in the process? The end doesn’t always justify the means.
And yes, a “higher power” really does mean god. Oh and very clearly, THE Christian god. I’m not totally sure what AA you’re referring to.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
My brother was threatened with “treatment” and/or jailtime because he wouldn’t admit this fucking “higher power” bullshit. It isn’t sufficient to just STOP drinking in this program.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
the new game show, Make a Christian Pop His Top!
each contending atheist only has ten minutes to enrage a priest!
DING DING DING
WAAA WAAAAAAA
February 25th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Just a thought on the AA stuff (the religion stuff just gets me ticked off). It truly says something about alcoholism when one of the most successful programs (AA) has such a low success rate. And though they do tell people that “higher power” can be anything, there tends to be a push toward accepting that the higher power IS god (it’s pretty clear in their publications).
And if you don’t believe me, let me punch your fat head. (Hell, I think I’m going to end all of my conversations with that from now on.)
February 25th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Losing an argument? Grab the nearest, fattest head and get poundin’.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
And really, what “higher power” could they possibly be talking about if not the Christian god? What greater power is there than human will? Volcanoes? Nuclear bombs? Tiger sharks? Very large rocks? Heroin? I’m not exactly sure what they want you to submit to.
Let’s say I started a program that taught people that it is actually physically impossible to quit smoking BUT there exists in everybody’s bloodstream a dormant microbe that curbs the craving. But it can only be “tricked” into activity by calmly addressing it every night, asking it to help you quit smoking. If people actually believe that some force is now working in their body that actually controls their urge to smoke, it MIGHT just be what they need to quit smoking. But what fucking good is that if I’ve completely insulted their intellect in the process? It’s like tricking children into behaving. I can’t get behind that!
February 25th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
This is something that until you go through it you have absolutely no idea
February 25th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I’m not denying the difficulty of dealing with an addiction to alcohol. I’m denying a fictional god’s ability to do anything about it. The punchline should be “Hey you know how god helped you quit drinking? SURPRISE! There is no god! You did it yourself!” Wouldn’t everybody feel like they had actually ACCOMPLISHED something then? There are plenty of secular support groups all over the place for everything you can imagine, with — most likely — about the same success rate. The HELP comes from being in an environment with people sharing your affliction and going through the same thing as you, not from Gee Whiz. That’s why they recommend that couples quit smoking together; nobody wants to do that shit alone.
Jesse, surely you remember the Great Addiction Debate of ‘06? At the dudes’ house? And everybody involved was just about ready to start punching fat heads? I was on YOUR side!
February 25th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I know im just saying everyone I know that has gone through it has found their higher power in family and friends not Lemmy
February 25th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
tl;dr
February 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Too bad tiger sharks could eat your friends and family.
TLDR
February 26th, 2008 at 10:01 am
why does it make you so angry that someone (lets say in AA) chooses to use god, or a “higher being” (real or not) as a crutch to lean on? As a sense of “security” to help them through their addiction? If believing in something real or not can help someone overcome something as terrible as addiction, then why do you care? Honestly, WHY does it work you up so much? ( And I’m not talking specifically to you Bill, just using you as an example) It is this heating up in discussions to prove the atheist point that turns me off to the atheist ideology. Same goes with the Christian ideology. BOTH sides are so adamant in their ways of thinking and won’t take either side into consideration, and only believe their side to be the truth.
You mentioned…
And then children are raised believing this shit before they’ve even developed the ability to think critically and the whole horrible thing continues for another generation. So forgive me, then, when I look in from the outside and think “These people are delusional, batshit insane and fucking RUNNING THE SHOW on false pretenses. Maybe I should say something.”
Who are you to say, and who are THEY to say these pretenses are true or not? And you don’t really buy the bullshit that the children being raised in this country are to believe this bullshit that the people “running the show” are forcing down their throats do you?! That’s the exact same thing as saying “My kid plays grand theft auto, and the other day he went out and robbed a car, shot three cops, and then fucked a prostitute to regain his health”. It’s not an exact comparison, but it’s pretty fucking close. It’s bullshit. It’s how you are raised. Obviously from the sounds of it, and I’m not saying I’m 100% correct, but from judging by your comments and the ones left by your mother you weren’t raised Christian. You didn’t buy into the shit that the people “running the show” shoved down your throat. And you certainly don’t buy into it now. It seems as though you actually had a free choice in your beliefs and thoughts, and that’s awesome. if only MORE people would raise there kids the way you were raised.
But who’s to say that the way you were brought up, and the views and opinions that were instilled in you are right or wrong? And who’s to say Joe Bible Thumpin Schmoe who raises his kids on strict Christian views is right or wrong?
This is why I say religious views should be kept the believer’s or non-believer’s self. Religion is a fight that will never be won, and really isn’t one worth fighting. But I know as well as you do that this is impossible.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:58 am
arguing about beliefs
oh brother…
February 26th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
haha man i have missed what this whole “oh brother” thing is about
February 26th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Hmmmmm, where to start without causing more trouble… There IS a difference between science and religion, right belief and delusional belief, and someone, somewhere needs to point out the difference.
When you start from an early age teaching kids it’s ok to sometimes accept completely ridiculous arguments, (Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, leprechauns, babies being born of virgins), when and where do you try to convince them that they SHOULDN’T believe this stuff? Why should they believe you at that point? Why are we surprised later that people are so gullible or unreasonable?
There are many reasons why just passively accepting people’s unreasoning beliefs is dangerous, the least is that by accepting SOME religious beliefs, it legitimizes ALL religious beliefs. So where do you draw the line? And who gets to do that?
Alright, so now you have some idea of where Bill comes by some of his views. BTW, he was baptized in a church (probably the first and last time he was in a church though), Santa Claus did bring presents, and the Easter Bunny did too.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Well, at least he’ll go to heaven when he dies…
February 26th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
And just to be clear, that was a joke, lets not go thinking I’m being a jerk to Bills mom. I saw the chance, and I struck.
Bills mom is a very nice mom.
February 26th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
But at least he’ll go to heaven
February 26th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Well, not if the Catholics are right, and not if the Baptists are right, and not if the Jews are right, and not if the Muslims are right, and not if the Jehovah Witnesses are right….
Damn, he’s probably going straight to hell.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
hahahaha you made me laugh Bill’s Mom. And I don’t think any trouble has been caused at all in this discussion, so I hope you don’t feel you’ve caused any at all.
you mention
There are many reasons why just passively accepting people’s unreasoning beliefs is dangerous, the least is that by accepting SOME religious beliefs, it legitimizes ALL religious beliefs. So where do you draw the line? And who gets to do that?
I pretty much agree with what you said, but 100% agree with your last two sentences. And I think in a round about way, this is what I was trying to say, but I am terrible with putting thoughts into words sometimes. And the ultimate conclusion to this whole thing is where the line is drawn, and who draws this line. Not me, not you, not Santa or the Easter Bunny. The part that I don’t agree with you is how accepting all religious beliefs is dangerous. Well I suppose it’s dangerous in the sense that wars have been fought over religion for as long as people have been around, but not dangerous in the sense that IF it gives someone hope (false or not) to believe (or not believe) that someone or something in the sky or down in the fiery pits of the darkest corners of hell…then who cares. Neither you nor I should be the judge of that and to whether it’s right or wrong, smart or stupid. I think it’s great if someone can fill a void in their life with a “god” and pull strength and whatever else they pull from their “god”. I don’t think it’s ok to tell me I’m ignorant because I do or don’t believe in your god. (which no one has done here). Again, it’s the line that you speak of. Where is it drawn, and who draws it? I really believe this is an argument that will never be lost or won, and no one is right or wrong.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Yup, it is the drawing the line thing and who gets to decide that causes the problems. And I have no problem with people believing in something that gives them hope but those kinds of people usually aren’t the ones who cause trouble, it’s the ones who buy into all the dogmatic crap that tends to go along with many religions that drives me nuts.
Believe me, after spending years reading about Europe’s wars of religion and realizing how many people died because some believed Christ was actually present in the wafer while others said that it was just a spiritual presence and some believed priests had special powers they received when they were ordained while others said no, they were just pastors to lead the flock…it goes on and on… and that sort of realization of how absolutely crazy people got about this stuff makes one very wary of dogma and how people can use faith for all the wrong reasons.
February 26th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
So, it’s totally okay to feed people whatever they want to hear/believe as long as it makes them feel good? You don’t think that’s the least bit patronizing? It’s like the mentally retarded kid in your class that thinks he’s Superman. “Shh, don’t TELL him he’s not Superman! He’s really enjoying himself.” Then suddenly he’s 40 years old. And still Superman. It’s an exaggeration of the AA group: “Shh, we MAKE him believe in god so he’ll quit drinking. We’ve convinced him he can’t make his own decisions,” but you get what I mean. It’s fucking patronizing.
The difference between accepting a rationalist worldview and religious beliefs is self-explanatory. The rationalist bases what he “believes” on evidence. Religious beliefs are just that, beliefs, and odds are they were instilled in you at childhood and have just never been questioned. YES, I think this is a bad thing because it impairs critical thinking. ONLY when it comes to religion do we consider it admirable to believe something DESPITE the evidence. In all other matters we tend to call that “gullibility” or “stupidity.” I’m sorry if I give ALL matters of reason equal treatment.
February 26th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Wow… looks like we’re all walking on egg shells since I left my post for a few days… Let’s go ahead and get stomping;
Overcoming alcohol addiction sounds like a nightmare to me, I can’t imagine the strength it takes to achieve that. Having said that, the wording in AA is bullshit in mentioning a “higher power” with a capital “Him”. I know that they might mean that “higher power” to be anything that encompasses an ideal bigger than the individual in treatment, but we all know who “He” refers to. The wording is bullshit, Jesse, not the program. I’m humbled to think how stupid I sounded years ago.
Howard says “And who’s to say Joe Bible Thumpin Schmoe who raises his kids on strict Christian views is right or wrong?”
Me. I do. Strict Christian views promote intolerance, hate and violence towards people condescendingly deemed by the church to be “sinners” (lesser human beings). Fuck what the Christians preach about “loving thy neighbor”, I’m interested in what they practice. I’ll judge the moral value of the creed by the number of murders directly caused and justified by it. I’ll judge the belief by the discrimination, hate and fear it instills in kids before they are able to think critically. These are people that believe in no uncertain terms that they are better than other people. And they study that they are better than non-believers, other religions, and all assorted variety of other commie-faggot-heretics literally, religiously. If we’re talking about tolerance for other beliefs, than you will find much more in this blog than you will in their ranks. I don’t hate Christians, but I believe that if they had unlimited power, you and I would be sitting in “internment camps” trying to decide which part of the floor looked the best to eat.
February 26th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Missed ya Chris!
February 26th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I was only on Jesse’s side in the Great Addiction Debate of ‘06 because if I had to choose between getting my fat head punched by Jesse or Chris, it would be Chris. Good rule of thumb, that has gotten me to 26 years old, is to just agree with the largest guy in the room.
That’s instinct. You can’t teach that.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
And really Bill, I think the mentally retarded kid should be able to believe he’s superman.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Awww you’re right, he looks pretty adorable with his underwear on over his pants. Even if he IS 43 years old.
February 26th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
jesus christ
February 26th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Good point.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:58 am
I also said that who’s to say Joe Schmoe the Atheist who raises his kids to believe the Atheist point of view to be right or wrong (not those exact words but you got the point). And you are right Chris. And I obviously missed the point. It isn’t what they preach, it’s what they practice. And it’s what they practice that is dangerous.
With that all said, when can some heads be bashed? Cause I really want to see some heads being bashed.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Well, you don’t really raise your kid to be “atheist.” If you think about it, that’s the default viewpoint. If you don’t specifically TEACH your kid to believe in a god, they’re not going to come up with the idea on their own. Unless they pick the idea up from kids at school or something.
With that said, I think I got bored of this like 40 comments ago.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:46 am
hahahaha
February 27th, 2008 at 10:20 am
I’m with Justin, time to punch some fatheads!
February 27th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
bill’s mom is with justin
oh brother…
March 1st, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Religious people are crazy and atheists are crazy… I disagree with my own comment now that I’m in a different mood. Don’t know what the stomping thing was all about, whoever wrote that deserves to be hung by a scientologist. I’m sorry, Jesse is a good thing, and so is Howard sometimes.
March 2nd, 2008 at 2:46 am
“Different mood” being “drunk.”
“I love you, man! Like a…like a BROTHER! Fuck man I love all you guys!”
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:29 pm
you said i was “good” Chris when i was “inside” you. and that happens all the time…so how can I be a good thing only sometimes?
March 4th, 2008 at 2:50 am
cant we all just get along?